Virgil Abloh Interview

Virgil Abloh on designing the 99% of your life outside of clothing and what the future is for the consumer generation.

The Point of OFF-WHITE™ Isn't to Buy OFF-WHITE™

I'm more interested in the extremes. That's the OFF-WHITE™ again. The black and the white.

I like how it’s not a carbon copy of the menswear. I think of a lot of the brands now just do feminine sizes of menswear to fit in. Women like to dress like women. Some do. There's actually like three sexes: men’s, women's, and a unisex in between grey area. I'm more interested in the extremes. That's the Off-White™ again. The black and the white. There's a middle area, but like what is to me it makes the T-shirt more interesting when it's a dress, when it's a skirt. It's a women's item. I have an opinion on that, I can design that. Do you find male customers are gravitating to also the women's side of things? To me, that's progressive. I'm happy because it's like you know? Imagine how many T-shirts and hoodies you have in your closet. Imagine how many I've designed in my lifetime. That's my training in fashion is graphic T-shirts, graphic hoodies. I'm sort of trying to find somewhere new and what's new is the women's font on the back of a men's hoodie and tucking that in a women's collection, not putting it in the men's collection. So, if a store buys it and you go in there and you find it, it's like that's a find.

I don't think anyone has picked up on that yet. Literally each store has a completely different vibe... To me, it makes it interesting for myself. I'm trying to make these things at a certain level like something I'm proud of. When I think of like how the world, you know we're making things. Does this one have a more feminine touch as well? Yeah, this store will evolve to be all women, the first women's Off-White™ store. Women's Off-White™ is its own thing. It exists in its own space, its design was never meant to be a carbon copy of the mens. That's why the women's shows look like they do. What's a women's brand that is designed with the same sort of like thought process as men's streetwear but not men's clothes? So, that's what Off-White™ women is. I remember seeing it in the Paris showroom and thinking how the women's line is really its own entity. Yeah, it's almost harder for them to sell the same collection because it's a different brand and I like that. It doesn't follow any traditional rules of ‘hey there needs to be a correlation.’ I embrace them as being different customers.

So, now you have shows in Paris, do you think you've broken the barrier for other brands to get to that level? I would say that that barrier was never there. That's the trick. I was just exploring the sea to see if the world was flat and it's not flat. It's round, everyone can go. Let's go explore. That's how I would analogize that. Is there anything in the fashion sector you feel you still need to bridge through? I don't know, I'm an optimist more than a pessimist. If those things exist I don't focus on them. I'm sort of naive. I think that through good work you can land in any sort of room. That's also by… it's by exploring I found that out, not just by saying something positive. Because obviously you didn't come through the fashion background... Of course, that way of thinking leads me to believe like 'ah, I wish I could do that.' I sort of embrace that. It's sort of modern that no one is going to have the traditional background of the generation before it. No matter what. That's what excites me about being able to do this project. It proves that's not the case. You don't have to go to fashion school or come from a particular background to sort of be on the same playing field. Now, it's just a matter of good ideas and that I can always strive to work towards… get better at the craft, or get better at my own craft.

Do they all follow a common theme? The theme is no theme. The Tokyo one is like a trading floor. The idea is that people shop differently in every city. I'm not into the idea of treating the brand like it's McDonald’s, where it has the same look and feel everywhere in the world. I think for fashion and sort of me you can call it postmodern artisanal. For me, it should have a completely different concept that relates to the city or relates in some level of uniqueness every time, but maybe I look at it like a challenge from an architecture standpoint. How many ideas can you throw at it? But it's cool you're not restricting yourself... We all live through the Internet. So, it's like online shopping experience is one destination. If I bought a plane ticket and ended up in Hong Kong and I follow Off-White™ on Instagram, I would have something to go look forward to. Maybe, I'm from New York so you know the New York store but you go to Japan like how many things are there to do in Japan — a million. But you might want to check out something you know because you've been to this one in Singapore and then you're like 'wait, the vibe is different.' I don't know, it seems logical to me. So that's really different to most or pretty much every brand right now... Yeah, but that's the same thing you put one streetwear kid in the mix to make decisions and I'm going to make them completely opposite. That's what we did with our whole industry. We took Gildan T-shirts and made them into gold.

I do not have enough space as well. I really would rather put all these possessions into a bank account. Yeah, that's where you have people on Grailed or people on eBay offloading. If you look at it, it's like a piggy bank, you start putting a few cents into it and it's like 'oh shit I have $300.’ You look at the amount on a $30 here or $50 here... you paid $500 for something that was $1,000 but you don't even wear it. That's going to hit us all at some point. There's some great design in it and I think all of a sudden people are reacting to it. What's interesting is people are going to react to it in different ways. Maybe that’s how normcore got its legs. People are like 'hey, I just need to get out of the conversation and do I have the most new XYZ?' All in all it's like of course. The number one question I get is 'oh, Off-White™, it's expensive for the culture that it relates to.' But it's not about feeding that kid that wants to buy another $30 T-shirt. It's about building a brand of that time that sort of exists and plays in a different sphere... like we just said, people that don't read HYPEBEAST that buy Off-White™ or something like that. That furthers the communication. A lot of these brands on the street might not know what HYPEBEAST is. I check it everyday. I like the idea that of the brands of today, that one of them realizes the importance of HYPEBEAST. Literally and figuratively, the generation that grew up on product releases, this type of product, these type of designs that play into larger luxury fashion. Do you think that? I won't name any names but any brands on this street... It's a different product. You know, I'm showing in Paris in between like Rick Owens and something like that. There's a larger fashion industry that's to play and so, I'm trying to take that store vibe and put it exactly in the same overall culture context. There's a lot more Off-White™ stores in Asia than America right now? Ironically, not really. It seems like it. There's one in Toronto opening up, New York opening. There's one in London. It might be half-and-half. Tokyo, two here. Shanghai, Singapore. But the ones that I have opening up sort of balance out.

The idea is that people shop differently in every city.

Kids, all they do is consume. What do they wear? You only have twelve hours a day to wear what you're purchasing.

99% of HYPEBEAST culture's focus is on the closet. There's nowhere else to go... Are you trying to get into that other realm? Yeah, I have projects in that realm that I'm working on. Furniture? So it's kind of like a whole lifestyle? Yeah and it's like to be defined. We're now at a point we're realizing our own overindulgence.

Do you work much on the business side of things as well or is it more of the creative? Both. There should be a business blog of HYPEBEAST. You can't just be focused in one lane. You can't just sort of like say 'hey I'm only...' I think of the business as a creative endeavor. I approach it in a completely different way. I kind of think that's like a whole sector that's needed as well, exploring the business side so people know how to handle their money. Yeah, obviously I come from architecture; I don't design clothes or DJ or something like that. To me it's about that understanding yeah, the HYPEBEAST kid, imagine how much they invest in square footage in their apartment. All of it’s in their closet. The value per square inch in their closet might be 40x, 50x what it is in the rest of their apartment. When are we going to start thinking of how HYPEBEAST culture relates to the other 99% of the square footage of their place? I think HYPEBEAST, myself, our generation — which are very much inline — we're only designing the closet still. Just out of my own exploration, clothes and the brand are interesting but putting those ideas towards the 99% rest of the square footage of lifestyle, what does that look like going forward? Going back, how many hoodies can you buy? You can't wear three hoodies at one time. All these great ideas into the self-taught generation all these ways of making our own market, could be put towards other elements that are still very culturally relevant, but in our zone.

That's for me personally as well. Yeah, I know that I consume at a high rate. Kids, all they do is consume. What do they wear? You only have 12 hours a day to wear what you're purchasing. So, I think logistically, we're up against that. That's safe to say. I think that it means we're at a place where people respect design in fashion. I look at it as like an engaging thing, I look at it as a new freedom, a new challenge to make and design things that people want to covet. We're way passed the point of necessity. Now, it's a sport. Of course, I look at things like this. That's why Off-White™ is embedded in all these art concepts, things I've rationalized in my head. Maybe, because we're in a generation of collecting things, that I make things that hopefully age in a specific way. There's a value now but there's a value later. There is inherently something of the now in it. When you buy these clothes or when you have them in 10 years you'll be able to be like 'wow, that Off-White™ belt meant this.' Or like Off-White™ used to say white on the back in a specific font. If you have one of those pieces now, that's rare. I don't do that anymore. Of course I'm like a 5.0 version of a streetwear branding-obsessive head. I've been wearing Jordan since Jordan was playing basketball. The idea that you're going to keep a pair of something that's later not going to exist anymore. We're hyper-consumers. I think it’s gotten to a point where you don't have to buy anything from the brand to appreciate it. Yeah, that’s why I say you don't have to buy Off-White™. It's more than one like idea that's getting design put out into the world. I have friends that work on the brand that, you know, we all think about things and culture the same way. That's more important than all dressing alike and wearing the same brand. I don't even believe in that.

So, do you think the customers or the followers of Off-White™ has kind of evolved through the years as well, or is it sort of a new batch? That's the best question of the day. Off-White™ by design has never been... I came from out of that, sort of, like a different era that niche meant people were excluded. This was like the cornerstone, limited edition, if you don't know you don't know, you know limited sort of distribution and all that. Enter millennials all of the sudden in one day and that doesn't matter anymore. Exclusive isn't cool. It doesn't matter if you're a skater, you're still wearing skate brands. People don't keep people separated. Off-White™ is a brand. By design, I never placed equity in sort of establishing the brand needing to be one thing. The name in itself is a contradiction. So, that's the reminder to anyone who works within the brand that contradiction is OK here. It can be ultra-cool and niche, and spotted on so-and-so and exist in such a space. But then it can also be in a pop culture sense. You know? It can be on kids who don't even know what Off-White™ means. They don't know who I am, they don't know about a Travis Scott DJ set, they don't know who Ian Connor is and how he is important to the evolution of streetwear. That's by design, that's by creative direction, it's not by accident. I think that's where I fall towards in anything. Trying to find the sweet spot between commercialism and refined content, I'd call it. Do you think it’s better to not purchase as much and have a big bank account or a big bank of possessions? I am at the point where I can't take another hoodie. My closet can't fit another T-shirt. I can't own another pair of shoes. I can’t wear them, I can't store them. That's happened in like the past three years for everyone...

a raw space meets a super finished space. OFF-WHITE™ Is defined by both OF those.

I remember you saying before how the purpose of Off-White™ isn't exactly to buy it, right? Is that still the same? I still don't understand... you know. I do Off-White™ as sort of an expression. As a sort of cause and effect to things that I've seen. I don't really focus on the commercial idea that items are made in multiplicity and then sold. I'm not making it for that in a way. I'm making it for what I see with the generation, what I grew up with in streetwear, things that I aspire to or products that are made in a specific mood how that can go out in the world and be in stores... Now this idea of doing stores is kind of super interesting to me. It's like "streetwear" has evolved to a place... now, we're seeing line-ups on Thursday or whatever around the block and police barricades. That's an evolution of everything before it. That's an evolution of brands before Rivington and Orchard Street. Fairfax, these are the forefathers of streetwear. The countless businesses like Nom de Guerre, Orchard Street, that, you know, paved the way for this type of clothing to even be made. Now, we've seen, like you said, HYPEBEAST has what how many millions of pageviews from when it started. So, it's a new generation. What do you think about this new generation? I think it's vital, I'm inspired that they exist. We're lucky to have a public that is now prime to support brands. In essence, we're all independent brands and retailers that exist and the sort of veil has been lifted off of this niche culture... there's no more niche in the classic sense. So, let's see if those niche ideas now have legs and I think that they do, and think that there's a generation looking towards those things that were once niche. To keep making products that relate to them as a demographic.

How has this progressed since the last store? The last store, the landmark is that it was the very first Off-White™ store that they've done, period. The brand is completely... by design, a different brand. You only know so much until you like start showing the brand and getting a larger platform. To me, it's ironic… what makes it interesting is it's very similar, you know? The last store was sort of two different ideas combined to make one expression. And it's the same concept here. Where a raw space meets a super finished space. Off-White™ is defined by both those. So, yeah. How about you as a person? Design is one of those thing I'm sure any artist will tell you, you don't know anything when you start, compared to like a year from when you start. So, the experience that I've gained while designing and creative directing my own project is pretty huge. The amount of stuff that I've learned in a short period of time is inspiring because I work to make the line even better, continuously more focused, more evolution, more of an understanding of where we are as a culture... Are you still as interested in it as before? Me, even more so. The way design goes, or for me anyways, is about developing an idea and seeing the feedback, and seeing how that looks in the real world and constantly tweaking that. That's the pace I'm at now with the brand. It's constantly working and understanding where culture is and where it's meeting design.

It’s been a little over two years since I first spoke to Virgil Abloh at his inaugural physical store in Causeway Bay, Hong Kong. Since then, the designer/artist/architect has gone on to open nine more retail concepts in cities such as Toronto, Tokyo and Singapore, while rumors continue to spread about more locations coming to life in New York and London. Abloh’s foray into a more traditional fashion approach after PYREX VISION left many wondering if it would continue to be sustainable, however, shows in Paris, lectures and CFDA Fashion Award nominations clearly indicates that he’s here to stay. Like with many who are associated to Kanye West and his creative endeavors, there’s little that hasn’t actually been spoken about or explored upon in terms of fashion and process with Abloh. Therefore, we took the opportunity to speak to him at the opening of his second Off-White™ store in Hong Kong and picked his brain about his progression over the last couple of years, as well as thinking about what the future can hold for a generation based almost entirely on consumption.